Starting with the problem, not the solution
The first conversations are about what the software has to do and who will use it, not about features. A workshop tool and a simulation game pose different questions, but the opening move is the same: describe the job the thing performs and what happens today without it. From there we can talk about scope in terms of outcomes. Clients who arrive with a fixed feature list tend to get a better result when we work backwards from the job and check the list against it. Sometimes the list survives intact. Often it doesn't.